Nashpoint: Infrastructure for Onchain Asset Managers

0:00 Welcome back to another podcast episode of the permissionless podcast brought to you by the Guardian team. And here, of course, we're going deep with DeFi builders. We're going deep to see how did they start building, what did they start working on, where they are today, what they see for DeFi in the future, and of course, what problems are they facing, what keeps them up at night, and much, much more.

0:21 And today, we have really a wonderful conversation with Cormac at Nashpoint. He's a co-founder at Nashpoint and they're building a really interesting infrastructure for managers to rebalance their strategies, users to come in and deposit into their strategies and be able to use a composable token in the rest of DeFi and get access to all the great potential yields and use cases in DeFi.

0:45 And they're solving for specifically some of the pain points that they experienced themselves when they were rebalancing strategies and doing a lot of this stuff manually at the Index Coop. And so we go deep into their design model, the idea of finding efficient automated process by having the correct incentives and really the beauty of the power of DeFi and really the art of permissionless building.

1:10 So I'm excited to get into this conversation with Cormac. But of course before we dive in, my name is Owen and over three about 3 and 1/2 years ago now I founded Guardian and we really set out with the idea that DeFi would consume trillions and trillions of dollars of assets and be a massive dependency in the global financial system.

1:30 And so we set out to build the security audit solution that was battle tested and enabled teams to build and ship consistently confidently in an environment where you have trillions of dollars at risk. And extending from this, we've upped the stakes. We use two competing audit teams and a dedicated fuzzing engineer with some of the best security researchers in the world.

1:51 Many projects get an audit and then are hacked months or sometimes even years later. And with the Guardian model, we are here to put this to an end. We're here to enable DeFi to ship in the age where it really matters. And of course, today with over $10 billion in funds secured in smart contracts audited by Guardian for multiple years at this point, really it's just about DeFi catching up.

2:14 And now, of course, without further ado, let's get into this conversation with Cormac from Nashpoint. Appreciate you joining us, Cormac, dude. excited to hear more about obviously Nashpoint and everything there, but I mean really before we even get into all that you guys have been working on and and building in in the dark for now.

2:39 What got you into crypto? How did you find your way into DeFi and and what have you tried before before Nashpoint? Yeah. Okay, that's a bit of a journey. So like what got you into crypto is an interesting question. So basically my background like my college education is economics. So I had an economics degree and I I came out of college and spent a short amount of time working for the Irish government like training to become an economist.

3:07 And I just didn't enjoy it. Did not enjoy it at all and completely pivoted away from that. And my other passion in life was music. So I I worked in like live event production for like a decade doing like sound, working at gigs, just like working at like big festivals and stuff like that. And during that time I was looking for somewhere to put my savings.

3:26 And I've always just been super bearish on the euro. Like I love the euro conceptually as an idea and as a European I think it's like just a really ambitious project and it creates like this really seamless experience of being a European. but I've just always just been that like hawk on the euro or bear on the euro and and so I was like, okay, I need some sort of an alternative place to like park my cash.

3:50 And around 2017, I started paying attention to to Bitcoin essentially. And I think it was like a lot of people from back then watching like Andreas Antonopoulos talking about what this technology was and like what it enabled on probably the Joe Rogan podcast or something like that. Yeah. And that was just a massive massive light bulb moment for me.

4:12 So I'm like kind of going from this point where it's like I've been watching and like I was like a very small fish in the room but like in the room during the Euro zone crisis and seeing what you know manipulating a currency or manipulating a society to make it subservient to a financial system. What effect that has on people and how it undermines the like legitimacy of the democratic process.

4:33 And then to have Bitcoin explained to me by someone who wasn't just like some stoner at a party but like a really articulate computer scientist who knew what he was doing. It was a real light light bulb moment for me. And and since then it's kind of just been an inbuilt and like a really inbuilt just like core fundamental belief that I have that like we are gradually transitioning towards this next step in like the progression of how monetary systems work.

5:02 Yeah. And within within that permissionless protocols are going to win. They're just going to win because they will be superior and people will reject people like over time will reject these sort of like inferior centralized systems and move towards these permission systems. And then I guess like around the same time Ethereum starts really picking up and this is like much more abstract to me.

5:24 Like I like I'm like like what? Okay, a smart contract. You can build anything on Ethereum. That sounds cool and the price is doing amazing things, but like I think a lot of people did get that. They understood what that meant, but it took a couple more years for me to understand what that actually meant. And for me that was really kind of coming in at like the tail end of DeFi summer.

5:47 So like watching watching how things evolved over like 2019 2020 and then and then particularly just all the heat and excitement in the industry around 2021. that that kind of taught me what the the potential was here. We can do a lot more than just create a new currency. We can do much much more interesting things with this technology.

6:13 And the the the the progression that really got me deep into this was discovering the Index Cooperative. So I was I ended up being a core contributor at Index Cooperative and I ended up being the head of the product team for a while, but prior to that I was just some guy like looking through Reddit trying to like research DeFi protocols and I had a big interest in just diversification and I was very very bearish on the idea like I'm maybe to a a flaw.

6:50 I'm like very like anti-active trading. I like I don't I don't believe in it. I I I just don't I don't think it's something that the average person can do. If you're an expert, if you work at Citadel and you get paid a million bucks a year, yes, absolutely by all means you can do it. But like I'm I'm not the guy who's going to chase meme trend meme coin trends and whatever because I just know I'm an idiot.

7:11 Like I'm just like I'm not that guy. so for me like figure out yeah it's it's it's like it's an amazing thing and some people are brilliant at it and then there's a lot of people who are just really really lucky and then everyone else get gets rinsed everyone else is exit liquidity. So, passive investing is something I've been super super interested in anyway.

7:33 And then trying to figure out how to do that in crypto led me to the Index Cooperative. And I always have like this like really wonderful like first memory of of like kind of discovering this. And I think I already had like Discord set up for like a little bit of like chatting with friends and that kind of thing for for gaming essentially.

7:52 And going into the Index Coop Index Coop discord and asking it's like hey I've got my like DPI which was their diversified defy index I've got my DPI Ethereum Uniswap v2 token pair token and I think I can stake it with you guys to earn earn some extra rewards. How does this work exactly? And someone just answered my question in five minutes.

8:20 He was already one of the core contributors there and I was just like wow this is just this is incredible like what what's going on here tell me I have to learn as much about this as possible and yeah just to like kind of draw that kind of story to a close like how did you get into DeFi just went down that rabbit hole it was a really welcoming community they offered me the opportunity to start working I really just started working to do a little bit of data analyst for them like just doing some spreadsheets and modeling and a little bit of like Python and that simple simple stuff like that and it just kind of like evolved and then eventually it was just like why the hell would I work a normal 9

8:55 To5 job in an office somewhere in Cork in Ireland when I could do this really really cool thing at the cutting edge of technology and then that was like kind of mid or early 2021 I would say and then I've just been full-time crypto since then that's excellent man yeah I mean the community power of of DeFi in general is it really draws you in just like everybody's so excited about the opportunity and just like the fact that anybody can come together, you know, and you could be talking to people on the other side of the world about the same exact thing and collaborating on these products and like helping them stake your LP tokens and stuff like that.

9:32 Which is just very cool. So, yeah, I think I think we all in some fashion have a similar story in that it's, you know, it's about the community and it's about the excitement of the tech and seeing that there's like legitimately new cool things that can be built after this sort of like singularity moment of having all the tech come together and having the cryptography get to where it needs to be and having those like sort of like game three problems get figured out.

9:56 So yeah, that that's very cool to to hear your particular story. everybody's got a different like way that they like meandered in. So, I always just love to hear like how did everybody just sort of find their way by happen stance into DeFi. but yeah, I mean that that's super interesting going back to when you were an economist and you first picked up Bitcoin, I can imagine.

10:15 Was there any kind of skepticism? I mean, specifically being an economist, like what was your analysis of this? Ah, this is this is brilliant. This is like an amazing lesson in my life about not trusting received wisdom because when I first encountered Bitcoin, I was in university learning orthodox economics which I found like fascinating. It's like a really interesting problem space to like think in and you know prepare for tests in and all this kind of stuff.

10:45 And it's really easy to like just assume that that is correct. It is like this is reality. These are the underlying rules of reality. And I like very much was like brainwashed by the dogma of like orthodox economics when I first discovered Bitcoin. And so at the same time, my best friend who is like a brilliant computer scientist and has his own like AI startup and has like led teams that exited to Apple and stuff, he's the same age as me, he's like he is discovering Bitcoin and and trying to explain to me how cool it is.

11:16 And I'm like, "No, man. You don't understand. Listen to me." Right? I've got an economics, half an economics degree. This is how the real world works. This is This is never going to work out. Have you ever heard of Have you ever heard of the the tulip madness? Like, you know, here's here's my counter example. The tulip madness.

11:33 This is just that again. Like that narrative. I was that guy. I was like the the the, you know, 22year-old boomer basically telling telling people like, "Oh, that'll never work. You know, man, you know, he has a cloud kind of stuff." And I completely missed it. I completely missed it. And it it took me like and so this guy, my my best friend, he was just using Bitcoin really to buy stuff on Silk Road, you know.

11:59 Yeah. And that that's how he came across it. And I I I I think I I talked him out of Bitcoin as an investment. And many years later, he said to me, he's like, you know, I would have bought a couple of houses by now. Oh. If you Yeah. So we we're we're we're still good. He sell I I put him onto Ethereum a couple years later and he's he's kind of okay with with me now about stuff.

12:22 But yeah, I missed that one, you know, and it was just because I was you know, I accepted the received wisdom and I didn't question it and then I didn't have the the correct lens to to kind of look at this new idea through and it just went straight past me and it was about five years later before like my my kind of eyes were open enough to actually appreciate what it was.

12:44 Yeah, it's hard with such a like a breakthrough technology because there I mean quite literally there hasn't been anything like it before that was actually like successful. Of course there was like previous iterations but I mean hardly anybody had even heard of those. so yeah I mean it's I think that's the resistance in general with such an idea that just completely rearchitects the way that we exchange and we provide goods and services to each other as humans.

13:11 It's like that's so core to everything in our civilization that it's like it's hard to even comprehend like could this be like a viable thing and and of course like if you are going off of the canonical economic theory and canonical economic model that was not built to like understand Bitcoin and there's no data points for that.

13:31 So, so it definitely makes sense. and I think that's the resistance that we have and we're we're getting to the end of that sort of cycle of now people are starting to get more and more familiar and probably some of the older economics some of the older economists who are, you know, they've been doing economists e economics for decades and how does the Bitcoin model fit into into their worldview?

13:56 I think it's coming around and we're we're starting to see that more and more. So, definitely excited to see that. But going from that point, what sort of So you started off with the Index Coop and sort of got your your taste of DeFi there and you know you're like LPing and all this stuff and and staking and and getting returns.

14:14 How does this lead us to where you are now with what you wanted to to do with Nashpoint? Yeah. So without getting too far into the story while I was at Index Coop by by the time I got to the end of that I'd had an opportunity to to do like a lot of different things which was which was like it was amazing.

14:32 It was like doing like an accelerated mast's program in DeFi. It was it was it was just such an awesome learning experience. and like some of the hands-on things that I had done, some of the hands-on things I had done, like stuff like trying to rebalance, an onchain index fund, you know, like trying to do that and, you know, trying to have like that like fiduciary responsibility to your customers, trying to like minimize slippage, trying to trying to like just really kind of grapple with, you know, your responsibility over this thing and then just the challenges in DeFi and like that piece of tech that it was built on.

15:11 Set protocol was built in 2020 and so it was you know an amazing piece of technology but it it was it could be quite hard to to operate and there was just a lot of aspects of it where I just really appreciate how painful it was to create these diversified strategies in DeFi and operate them properly. And there's like loads of like little anecdote like anecdotes and examples I could give, but essentially it it it it kind of prompted me to kind of come up with what would be my wish list if I was to try and design something from scratch.

15:45 If I was like try and create like this piece of technology that solved all of these like day-to-day issues that I have trying to execute these things, trying to work with customers, trying to provide the things that people actually are asking for and actually want. What would that look like? And at the time in the Index Cooperative I was trying to you know pro promote us.

16:05 It's like hey we need to kind of try and you know move a little bit faster here and we need to like develop this new piece of technology. And you know it was just a difference of opinion. They said no the Set Protocol is very flexible. It is upgradeable. We want to stick with this. We want to continue to upgrade it.

16:19 You know there's a lot of Lindy effects around this tech. It's never been hacked. It's never been exploited. So just a difference of opinion. they wanted to take like a more like kind of se sequential and cautious approach to improving their tech stack and I wanted to make a clean break and build something new. So obviously when you're in a situation like that you just have to go and do it yourself.

16:42 Yeah. So so I completely transparently I I knew a bit of coding but I did not know how to code smart contracts at this stage. I I spent a lot of time reading smart contracts h as part of my job but I was not a solidity developer at all. So in June of 2023 I quit Index Cooperative and I started learning like fundamental computer science stuff on C CS50X you know on Harvard's like have like an online on YouTube course for like learning like fun fundamental computer science topics.

17:22 So I learned that built a few like did that did a few like dummy projects and stuff like that and then I started solidity maybe January that January 2024 started working with solidity did a couple of hackathons built some stuff with Chainlink CCIP to kind of get my hands dirty and then coming around so my co-founder Punia I worked with at index at Index Cooperative he was a product manager for Set Protocol who were the underlying tech we were working on top of so we're mates.

17:53 Like he's like someone who's he's like come and stayed in my house and and hung out with me in Portugal and stuff. That's awesome. We were just kind of like talking about like what do we want to do and where do we see like capital markets and credit markets evolving and I'm kind of showing him my ideas like I want to build this foundational technology that anyone can kind of build stuff on top of.

18:10 And he's got this kind of like I guess maybe more kind of like philosophical perspective is like where he sees like banking moving where he sees yeah just the kind of the evolution in the in the the the financial industry and where he sees that going and we basically just ended up kind of meeting in the middle around I would say April last April last year and and from that point we're like okay let's let's actually try and and and do something here.

18:40 And then we we iterated on a ton of stuff like we tried to do we tried to do a bunch of different things and then either we would like decide it was like not a great product or we would see some like kind of like logical flaw in like what we thought we could do and and we would dump it.

18:58 And I think that was really helpful. We'd like work on something for like two months 100% and get to a point it's like no one's going to use this, get rid of it. And ultimately we came to this idea like okay we we we we know RWAS are going to be massive. We don't know exactly what it's going to look like but onchain tokenization is going to be an incredibly important trend.

19:17 What do we see as the issues here? Huna previously after leaving Set Protocol he worked at at Goldfinch. So worked very hands-on in the RWA space and the two of us like really really simple like assumption is like liquidity for RWA on chain is is a challenge like there's like no great way to do liquidity for RWA on on chain right now or it's just really really hard for the protocols to get people to allocate liquidity because they can go and do all this like atomic stuff u on DeFi protocols and maybe earn better yield even though they take more risk but there's a huge trade-off between like locking something up for a couple month, you know, maybe like a month or like even just a couple of days just depositing and withdrawing from a

20:03 Whenever you want to, you know. So, we we we we kind of set out to like try to solve that problem as as like our our kind of like kind of central organizing function essentially. but using this like underlying flexible technology that I'd been kind of like iterating on and thinking about for months and months. And so what we're coming to market with now in like the next couple months will be this like mix of likew it allow investors to kind of access those kind of yields.

20:35 But it would be bundled up with these much more like from the customer perspective they'll have access to these yields but it'll be bundled up with much more liquid assets. Yeah. chain. So, so your a and that kind of thing. And the there's like a couple of mech mechanisms in the protocol particularly like the swing pricing and the reserve management and all that kind of stuff that is designed to help with that liquidity management and try and ensure that you know regardless of the state of the market.

21:02 If things are like very very negative and things are like we have to wind down a lot of the protocol or a lot of the investments in the protocol, we should be able to like kind of manage those liquidity requirements and kind of progressively you know progressively return funds to customers. because we have you know this ability to asynchronously because we have this ability to asynchronously process the redemptions and then we have this kind of like bundling of like liquid reserve highly liquid investments in DeFi strategies and then like less liquid or WA stuff kind of like at the end of that chain.

21:43 So that's that I can I kind of jump past your question a little bit, but that's how it kind of went from working at Index Coop and and getting to this point now where we're just about to launch what we have. so yeah, long answer, but that's the that's the gist of it. No, that's exciting, man. And there's there's so much we can we can get into off of that, but it sounds like so obviously a big part of the the Nashpoint product is sort of revolutionizing or just making it much much easier for fund managers to allocate and have stuff, you know, automatically rebalanced and stuff like this for them.

22:16 What sort of like interaction did you have? Did you have any experience managing one of these funds yourselves or were you like were you hearing stuff from from people who are managing funds that they're you know complaining about all this stuff and there's all these problems? Where where did you get the idea for that painoint? Yeah, it was two things.

22:32 It was like two things. So like one just like my firsthand experience of like doing the operations and rebalancing on funds that are already in existence at at Index Coop. So like you're you're like going ah like I was working with another product manager Sid who was living in Mumbai and I was living in Lisbon and the day we had to rebalance the funds was just the scariest day of the quarter.

22:58 Like it was just so terrifying. So, I would get up I would get up at like 3:00 a.m. so that we could like spend the whole day just like making sure we had like like you know quadruple check each other's work four times before we like initiate a single transaction and just like checking like all the slippage on all the dexes and like you're never going to get like perfect execution anywhere.

23:20 So you're just like trying to have this like trade-off between like, okay, we're balancing on Ethereum, so we've got all of these gas costs that we have to to kind of contend with, but then we've got, you know, better liquidity on this deck versus this deck, this deck, this decks. So like how do we like model that out and how do we and then you're thinking not not just like one trade, but like multiple trades and then you're thinking in the aggregate and you're like, okay, I need to reduce my a position by x much and increase my, you know, maybe we're like adding lido into the product.

23:48 All of these kind of like super super simple things to do when you're trying to do them in isolation, but when you're trying to do it at the aggregate level with the tech that we had, very very very painful and very very kind of disconcerting almost. so, that was the that was the like firsthand experience of dealing with this stuff and that really motivated the kind of asynchronous rebalancing that you see in Nashpoint.

24:15 This ability for people to like set strategies. They can set like a a kind of a a tolerance like I call it max delta within within the smart contracts. But it's just a it's just an allowed tracking error. so you know the strategy won't update it won't rebalance any funds if it's within this allowed tracking error. so the these kind of things it just gives you this flexibility and like the idea kind of coming out of it is like over time I call it I guess I guess kind of like a progressive rebalancing like managers could definitely set this up so everything will like be very like actively management actively managed to like if they want to completely rebalance the whole protocol or their entire product like every 12 to 24 hours it can accommodate

25:01 That but I think for the kind of strategies that I had kind of designed it in mind with it's it's this idea of like progressive rebalancing where like over time you know every 24 hours maybe we like settle the fund and like try to like minimize slippage try to like minimize execution costs and and try and you know preserve as much capital as possible for the users.

25:24 So that that there's that aspect of it and then also like dealing with asset managers like a lot of what we would have done towards the end of my time in Index Coop was like like talking to professional funds. I'm not going to name names now, but like talking to like some pretty big professional funds that were like now definitely getting stuck in with onchain and at the time they were trying to like figure out what they could do and trying to like figure out like what we were doing and just understanding like what their pain points are, what kind of questions they were asking.

25:54 It it it kind of made it clear to me what features are going to be important long term. I think like something that you have in the the the notes there is the the the crosschain interoperability like we do not launch with that like that's kind of we're we're launching as an MVP but it's very important to us to get to this kind of crosschain interoperability world because I mean what I saw a lot of these like top managers that are coming in they care about once you go past stable coins they care about like the top they care about Bitcoin they almost care about Ethereum and then some of them that are like like way out on the way out on the like the vanguard care about like maybe the top 20 coins.

26:35 The top 20 coins are not on Ethereum. It's like they want they want a pretty diversified basket in terms of like you know EVM or like execution environments and they they don't care like you say oh let's do like an optimism ecosystem product with you guys. It's like why why would we do that? Like we don't care what about that.

26:55 We just want to give the the the 20 best coins to our customers, you know, or 20 to our customers. They want to hold that coin, not like a wrapped or like a derivative. Exactly. Exactly. So this this this is the thing. So people can do stuff like this on centralized exchanges and there there's custodians can do this kind of stuff for people and it's very challenging to do this kind of stuff in an onchain environment, but I think for us it's going to be essential.

27:24 So part of our like going back to your question, these are the requirements that I saw coming from, I guess, like the grown-ups, like the real asset managers. Yeah. And it's definitely where we want to build towards. Definitely where we want to build towards. That's excellent. That's awesome that you guys are so close and you have that feedback loop, right, with the the folks that are that are just coming in and and starting to make things really exciting for us.

27:47 Absolutely. Definitely. one other thing is like you mentioned having like you know a personal interest in like more like passive or or spot investing like obviously got into Index Coop when you got into DeFi and yeah like you mentioned there there were a few challenges with those products at the time. It's like you know do we do a basket?

28:02 Do we do it synthetically and now I guess like being in the RWA space do you think that that this is like what onchain indexes look like now? Have they kind of like taken over that sector or is there still a need for the more like you know index type product? So when you say RWAS is this is what onshade index indexes look like.

28:22 Are you saying that you know the the the fund that's being tokenized is already diversified and now we're accessing it. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's going to be both one after the other in sequence. I think there's going to be a really quick route to market for a lot of traditional funds that want to tokenize or bring things on chain.

28:43 And it's really simple. You just take what you have that already works and you've like got like your excellent execution and you know it's like it's a going concern. It already runs. it already operates and then you just move that onchain, make it interoperable with DeFi, access new growth opportunities, new liquidity. And the the the the the really optimistic outcome here though and it's kind of where I kind of want to push the space towards like eventually is that as these big funds and as these big managers see how great the execution that they get with their kind of like already like created funds their offchain funds onchain when they see all of the advantages that they will start to create these novel products that are like you know instead of like bringing a basket

29:29 Of treasuries on chain Let's you know look at a protocol where the entire nissi like every single product is an individual token on chain and then bundle that up in in like a kind of like a meta smart contract essentially and and then do all of our execution all of our balancing on chain use all of that liquidity use all of the kind of the the advantages of onchain.

29:53 So I think like that is not going to happen next year and it might happen like it might happen in five years but it will happen eventually and it's just simply because I think there was an excellent report put up by Paradigm kind of along these lines a couple days ago but onchain is just going to save these businesses a ton of cash you know like as as as they're able to as they're able to migrate more and more of their operations on chain they will become more efficient businesses and if they don't do it, they'll be out competed by the businesses that do, you know.

30:27 So, the the kind of the game theory around this thing, if you're you know, a traditional fund manager is to explore this stuff, get really good at it as fast as possible, and then be ready to migrate to it when the rest of the market is and hopefully even front the market if you want to, you know, disrupt the incumbents or if you want to establish yourself as the new big player in town.

30:50 So, I think yeah, it's it's a two it's a two-step thing. I think we're just in that early point now where we're going to start to as DeFi users get access to these like you know really well constructed, really well put together like offchain funds that are coming on chain and it's just a token attached to like an SPV in Switzerland or or something like that.

31:12 And that's awesome. It's phenomenal. It's what I want to do. It's like changing the world as far as I'm concerned. But the goal is much bigger than this for sure. That's awesome, man. And yeah, I think another aspect of so of course we've got the the forcing function to be able to bring all of these real world funds on chain and and it's almost going to be like kind of a race at some point.

31:33 So really exciting to see that happen. And then one thing that is probably keeping them, you know, by the sidelines and maybe they are a little bit still questioning is like how how do we do this securely, right? So how do we come in and manage a fund with the right operational security and stuff and I think also that's where Nashpoint can can come in because as sort of a ancillary benefit you guys also in some sense standardize the operational security of managing a fund because I'm sure when you were setting up all those transactions to rebalance the funds back in the day manually I don't know if you were going through like a safe or if you had some kind of like a multisig to to handle that but like even if you're

32:14 Going through a safe, there's like all of these things that you've got to you've got to like simulate the transactions. You've got to now you have to you've got to make sure you don't have like a must UI and you should check the the transaction hash against the the safe API and stuff like this. and there's all sorts of like R&D that that you can do on on the operational side for managing a fund.

32:36 And I think that's another thing that probably with this like automatic rebalancing gets abstracted away and and gets standardized across all fund managers at Nashpoint. Is that have you guys like had that in your mind at all as you're developing this as well? Yeah, 100% 100%. That's exactly what we're trying to do. I mean in a perfect world like if we do a really really great job on this, I would love So yeah, just for everyone listening, right?

33:04 B basically what Nashpoint does right is custody and execution. It's like two sides of it, right? So if you're an asset manager and you want to build your baby, you've got your product, your ideas, your strategy, whatever you you you you use our factory. You create your individual node smart contract. It's ERC20 compliant. You can go do all your cool DeFi stuff with that.

33:26 Your users can do all their cool DeFi stuff with that. And then you within that ERC20, you set a strategy. And this strategy defines basically the rules that the the node has to operate by. And so you can say like I want this much of like a reserve asset. I want my reserve asset to be USDC. And then you know I wanted to allocate in these kind of percentages to all of these different DeFi protocols and strategies underneath the hood.

33:52 And then you you you set the percentage but then you also have these other controls around rebalancing. you kind of you can set like I think I mentioned earlier but like this like tracking error you can set like an amount of tolerance around the the target strategy. So like say you've got 20% in a but you know we're not going to do anything if it's like 1% away.

34:15 So we're not going to you know execute any any transactions and spend gas to do that. You can set all of that and you could also set the rebalancing frequency. So, do you want this to be updated? You know, do you want to settle it like every 24 hours, every six hours, every month? Like, it's completely at the the discretion of the manager.

34:33 And then that's all locked down. All of that is like immutable onchain. The only person that can change that is the owner of that that node, we call it that ERC20 that represents your fund. So, that's the custody aspect. And then the other aspect of what we do is execution. So we today will run offchain automation that really really simple job it just it's just watching events on the blockchain you know seeing like are there new deposits you know what you know what what how much excess cash do I have and and then when the a sufficient time is passed as set by the manager our automation can come in it can initiate a rebalance window and and then it's got like 30 minutes basically to do all of the execution that will get that

35:25 Fund back to its equilibrium state essentially. And then the the the the question you asked was like do we like hope to to like simplify this and and standardize this for people? It's like yes the the idea is definitely that a manager can set it and forget it. you know that they they they they they can do all of their own modeling, their risk management, all of the stuff that they're excellent at, have a really simple interface to kind of like set up and manage this product.

35:56 And then essentially our automation, we have to follow the rules. We have very very minimal discretion in terms of like what we can do like maybe and it would like not be in our benefit either. we could have like suboptimal execution to getting back there, but like we're very much the game theory around it is we're incentivized to have as good execution as possible so that we can protect the the overall TVL of the product and then we earn the fees on top of that as well.

36:25 So like we're very much incentivized to like you know we have like a a an incentive to protect the capital in each of these and we have very very limited options in terms of like what we can do. All we can really do is when the manager allows us, we can update the state in in in their node following following the rules.

36:44 And the idea really would be over time to decentralize that function as well. Like right now it's it's clearly a compromise like we we we we run this offchain thing and that comes with its own like limitations and risks around that. But like a much better future version of this that we get to hopefully as soon as possible is where anyone can like come in and and do some of these like rebalancing functions like completely decentralize that and create an incentive structure.

37:18 One of the last things that I did at the Index Cooperative was work on an auction rebalancing system. So just to give the guys credit what we were doing in 2021 they don't do that now anymore. They've a much better system and great people who've like solved a lot of those problems. and one of the solutions was this auction model where instead of us being the the taker and going to different dexes, going to different tech deexes and and just taking the price that we can get now, I think most index products work where they're actually the market maker and they just like basically when they want to rebalance they they they they just like, you know, give an opportunity to the market on a on a like a it's a Dutch auction essentially, you

38:01 Know, it's it's a Dutch auction for for people to have an opportunity to rebalance it. And I think we get to something like that in Nashpoint as well sometime in like the next like I don't know 12 months. obviously it has its own risks and concerns and you've got oracle hacks and all sorts of stuff to worry about there.

38:20 But long term we need to completely decentralize it. And like I know just one last point on this like that's the point where I think Nashpoint has like huge value because you have this really standardized system where anyone can come in create a vault they kind of they know that all of the operations are decentralized on the other side and that the operations can only be carried out according to the rules that they set and then once you get a competitive market around that you just literally need two people competing with each other and you have a competitive market and then you're guaranteed market level execution.

38:50 Never any better, but you get at least the market rate. And then that's the point when this protocol really starts to to sing, I think. Of course. Yeah. And I mean I I I think it's in the name the the point of Nash equilibrium where and it's funny how DeFi the best DeFi products work in general is when everybody's incentives are aligned and that's when you reach true decentralization and that's when you also reach like powerful automation and like automation that is robust in that like let's say if your AWS server is down like you know it's not relying on that and it's in fact relying on incentives that can be accessed by anybody in the world on on the blockchain, anybody who has an access to the RPC and can send a transaction and

39:33 And sign it with their private key. So yeah, I think that's the most beautiful thing. I mean, of course, like when I was coming into into DeFi, something that was sort of enchanting to me as well was like the idea that we can have like even in like a I think like a beefy finance optimization vault was like some of the first stuff that I started to to look at.

39:52 The fact that you can have an incentive for anybody to come in and rebalance and harvest the strategy and then they'll just get paid a little bit of an economic benefit from that value that they provided. It was so elegant because you don't have to set up like of course you know Beefy can set up their own harvesters that do it themselves but even if they didn't there's still the economic incentive for anybody else to come in and take that action on behalf of the protocol and ensure that like if I'm depositing into a beefy optimizer vault I know that it's going to get harvested and it's going to get rebalanced.

40:28 I could even do that myself if I wanted to and and have a reward for that. So yeah, I think it's just it's very cool. And of course, Nashpoint is taking that to the next level where we've got all the the incentives aligned between the fund managers, the depositors, and the executors to to make this truly like a seamless process.

40:47 So, very cool and and obviously looking forward to seeing like how this progresses with like you mentioned like a Dutch auction becoming a market maker. That seems very cool as well. It's kind of like offloading the complexity away from the protocol and then really just letting the outside like arbitrage bots and everything like this handle that which is which is really cool as well.

41:10 But yeah and I mean stepping back a little bit more to like highlevel what Nashpoint is doing. So I think there's a few things. So obviously there's everything within the RWA space and and bringing these institutional funds onchain, but then there's also like connecting that to DeFi. I think that's really the big like obviously there's a value proposition on the institutional side where it's like they can have their fund more easily managed.

41:34 They can access new liquidity. they can access new new users in a permissionless way and stuff like this, you know, with an asterisk of like regulation. but there's also the exciting part for DeFi, which is that we can take these assets and the power of DeFi is composability. It's the fact that anybody on on one network and even now anybody across all networks with interoperability can come and interact with anything that's been tapped into DeFi.

41:59 So, I I guess what kind of integrations and what kind of power do you see unlocked from bringing these RWAs onchain and making them composable with other stuff? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. This is one of the really exciting aspects of it because like what you really get when you bridge these two worlds to not use the technical crypto term but like you know to bridge these two worlds is you get these these amazing quality assets these amazing quality assets that you can now bring on chain and use as collateral.

42:29 You can bundle them up with these other other like like maybe slightly riskier but more exciting and more rewarding DeFi things. And you can also use them in DeFi as collateral. You know, there's all sorts of all sorts of like incredible features that have been built in DeFi. And there's all of these like amazing things. And you know, you're just describing like how beefy finance works.

42:53 All of these like truly neutral, truly decentralized incentive structures that are completely open to everyone. anyone could participate in. and now we get that opportunity to apply these mechanisms to these like pristine like mature assets that Trady understands that managers who control trillions of dollars understand and they know how to they know how to think about them.

43:24 They know how to like weigh up pros and cons. They know how to allocate into these things. and they have that expertise and now we're going to give like you know this the DeFi customers like people like you and me who are you know like true onchain natives now we get access to like this on this onchain pristine capital where we can put our savings you know we can feel really really confident in what we're doing where we're allocating our cash but also you're giving like these really really like worldclass like Olympiad level asset managers access to these this incredible sandbox in DeFi where they can do all of these cool things and like all of these new options are are available to them.

44:06 So, it's just such a net net benefit for everyone. Like I think it really is a thing where like everyone wins in this situation. I think there's always going to be like there's always going to be almost like kind of like a dark web of DeFi. I think there's going to be like protocols that just serve a need for people who want to be completely offchain, who don't want to mess around with KYC, who want to like be like I guess like sovereign individuals or whatever you want to call that and they will they will be served by by DeFi protocols and you know they will have everything that they need and and a ton of protocols will succeed and do really well just serving that need.

44:48 But I think the future of DeFi and RWA is is is is by and large going to converge in the middle and it will it will look like it will look a lot like Trafy in some ways like you will have to to access certain things you know people will need to know who you are. You will need some sort of like a legal entity and that that that is going to happen.

45:16 And you can see like, you know, like Uniswap is moving that way with hooks like enabling people to do like KYC chains and and then that's now being used by Coinbase. Like this is this is very very much like what the the environment is going to look like as it matures. and that is a good thing like that's a good thing and I don't think it precludes people who are true onchain DG natives from doing what they want to do either.

45:43 Absolutely. And I I think it's really it's a prerequisite to have all the TVL that we want to have come on chain be able to to be able to put those regulations in place. And so with that in mind, are there are there different kinds of of funds at Nashpoint where like one is for like the everyday DeFi user and then there's also like I can imagine an asset manager probably would want to have a fund where it's like you have your regulations on top and then also maybe it's even like a whitelisted set of depositors.

46:12 Is that like a a configurable thing? Yes. Yeah. Not at launch, but it's definitely where we need to get to as soon as possible. So, I think like two products. So we try to be unopinionated about people what what people build on the protoone you know like we want to be like a kind of a a neutral a neutral layer similar to a Uniswap or and just kind of like occupy that space and then let people do whatever they want to do on top of it.

46:43 So, that said, two products I'd love to see get built this year would be one that's just like a pure like kind of like DeFi DGEN, fund that is very actively management that does like resettle every 12, every 24 hours completely and like go 100% into this strategy if it's the most if that's your STR, you know, if that's your risk profile and that's what you're doing, like do that and showcase that aspect of the protocol.

47:08 And then I think there's another another protocol that I'd like to see sometime later this year which is like fully KYC which is like you know let's do something that is like 70% you know or maybe most of that's like US treasuries and some cool like some some cool like I don't know like whatever like hedge funds in there or something like that and then it's mixed with a little bit of like a or you know Morpho or thing to have that kind of like instant liquidity for redemption.

47:41 So we have that kind of like nice kind of like duration profile across the entire product and then KYC it you know like like work with the manager who wants to create that and and create like we didn't launch with it but we've built like an entire prototype for like how to KYC these tokens. there's nothing at the smart contract level but on the back end level that's all ready to go essentially.

48:03 So when we have the right partnership and the right customer in mind, we would love to to have that product and just show to people like I guess for us those are kind of like the two opposite sides of the spectrum and be like look you can do everything in the middle here. You can do something that's like fully KYCed run by a big fund and is like whitelisted and restricted and only does this but also you could come in here and permissionly just create your you know DGEN fantasy and and and sell it to all of your customers who have similar like goals and and and and and preferences.

48:35 Yeah, absolutely. speaking of customers, like who would you say and maybe this is going to be an evolution, right? But like let's say at the start versus you know when we build everything out that we're talking about who is Nashpoint targeting? Yeah. I mean like you know like to be honest like you go straight to the top like I want Fidelity and BlackRock to build on this you know and it's not just like right so like it's not just like hubris or ego or like wanting to be like the big guy.

49:01 It's like inspiring. It's inspiring. You have to you have to shoot big, right? But also I so something that really inspires me and I'm I'm far from like an expert on it like in terms of being like a historian of how it all worked but the Linux protocol I think Linux is just the most fascinating human coordination project ever.

49:19 If you go and you look on the look online, you'll find like the top 100 contributors to Linux every year by like lines of code and you look at the top 10 companies that contribute to Linux every year and it's literally the best tech companies in the world. It's literally the best tech companies in the world because it's essential for their business.

49:39 They need this underlying technology to continue like evolving and adapting. So they allocate real resources to it. they they they put in the effort as well to compromise and work with all of these other people and all these other teams that are also like growing this project and improving it and it's worked for like 30 years and it's the backbone to like half of the digital economy or more, you know.

50:02 So that's an incredible project and what I would love to see happen in what I would love to see happen in like onchain asset management is it doesn't need to be me but is this kind of like standardization of how things are done so that loads of loads and loads of different teams with different goals can come and look at a protocol like a Nashpoint and be like okay one that's credibly neutral you know I I I I don't need to trust anyone like this is actually decentralized it's as decentralized as Ethereum as Bitcoin.

50:33 Two, there's like a clear path for me to like add to this and improve it and add routers, add a new node contract, whatever I need for my business needs. And and then and and then three there is well, I guess it's like just one and two. There's just those two things like and sorry, three, it benefits my business.

50:54 Like I can actually have a you know, a better product. I can improve my current product instead of building my own thing like going off here and creating my own operating system for my computer to just use something like a Linux, use a Nashpoint, add to it in some way, work with that community, build this new thing, launch my product, and then there's like this net like aggregate benefit to everyone in the community.

51:16 It's like, oh well, you know, BlackRock came in, built a new router that does this, and now it's permission permission permissionlessly available on the protocol, and anyone can add it to their product. Like it's a really really long-term goal to get there. Again, it won't happen in five years. It won't happen in 10 years, but someone needs to build this.

51:37 Like someone needs to build this exact thing so that we don't get this like fractured liquidity, these fractured ways of doing things and all these different asset managers. If BlackRock and Fidelity and and and and you know all of these different massive man asset managers come on chain and reinvent the wheel for their own businesses, it's going to be suboptimal for the system.

51:58 I I could say much worse words, but it will not be good, right? But if we can create a foundational layer that just it just makes sense for teams to come in and use this instead, then I think you you end up in a much better place as as an ecosystem. It's much healthier for everyone. So that's that's the goal.

52:19 You know, that is genuinely the goal. Totally. Yeah. It sounds like a like operating system for RWA Onchain, which definitely a ton of value in that. 100%. I think that's also where the real flywheel of DeFi comes in is is the beauty of of DeFi is that once a standard has been figured it out then anybody can come and interact with a protocol like Nashpoint to spin up a new instance of that same standard and inherit the same security principles that the best in the world are using and and you have the same practices and and even in some cases maybe the same like execution as literally the best asset managers in the So it's very like disinflationary in that sense where everybody all at once gets access to to that standard.

53:05 So totally agree and I think that's that's like a very bullish sentiment for DeFi in general is that we're we're able to to have that disinflationary aspect and I think as we start to build more and more primitives in DeFi and once again like a opens a new market everybody has access to to a Nashpoint deploys now everybody has access to to a Nashpoint node that they can spin up.

53:32 I think the flywheel will just keep spinning and spinning and as we start to compose more and more, granted, as long as we can all keep it secure, then I think we're going to have a like traditional finance and the world outside of blockchain is just not going to be able to keep up with the compounding effects that go on year after year, especially as we continue to bring more and more people into the system.

53:56 It's like we have an exponential curve here where we've still got all the tech we already worked on in the last five years and that's still onchain and functioning. Uniswap v2 is still used by knows how many protocols today and then you know now we've got Uniswap v3 and Uniswap v4 and and we've got all of these different amm and we've got you know it's just building and building and building.

54:18 And of course not everything is going to work out. It's it's kind of like the iteration like you said and we'll we'll get to those those core protocols that that help us really truly build the future of of finance on DeFi. And I I think like you said it's it's like a forcing function. It's like it's just a matter of when you come on chain because you're going to have to because it's just going to become too valuable of a place to not be.

54:41 So, yeah, I think that's that's really excellent. And then I also wanted to ask like so you guys you've mentioned a ton of stuff that's that's in the pipeline such as like the Dutch auctions, the crosschain interoperability. Is there is there anything else that's really big for you guys? And and what do you think is the number one feature?

54:59 So I I I mean I can talk about some other features that I think are are going to be really important, but I think the crosschain interoperability is is really long term for us. I think that's that's going to be the thing like it should it should be I think like if if we do a great job like three or four years from now there's going to be like a based rollup app chain that is Nashpoint and that's like the the kind of the core logic and that's the place where you know maybe institutions interact with to to get access to to DeFi through our protocol and then we have that interoperability then with just everything that's going on everything in the Arbitrum ecosystem.

55:39 Everything in like the the optimism superchain ecosystem, everything in the ZKsync ecosystem and then obviously everything like natively within Ethereum, everything that's going to be a base to roll up. I think that's going to be like super super important and and and people really will not care. I know it's kind of a tread cliche at this stage everyone says it, but like they really will not care what chain they're operating on.

56:02 That that's that's super important to us. I think the other one then the other one then and it's not like really something I'm I'm an expert at. So, if anyone out in the audience is like forgive me for talking about this in in my kind of boneheaded way, but, building Nashpoint and like really like learning like where the like the the the pain points that I had to contend with where, I I would love to move like essentially all computation offchain at some point.

56:31 And what whatever that looks like, is it, you know, a ZKVM? Is it a trusted execution environment? whatever it is. I don't have a great opinion on that yet, but I could just see these roadblocks in trying to do all of this stuff in Solidity right now. There's just there's just no there's no way like you know, so like just to say really specifically, my my co-founder hates it when I use this example because it's too nerdy, but maybe you guys will tolerate it.

57:01 But say I want to calculate the value of a really diversified node, right? So I run a loop. Yeah. I run a loop and I'm like doing all these oracle calls. It's like, okay, what's the price of this? What's the price of this? What's the price of this? Yeah, that's a long like if you want to get like a multiple assets in there, that's a very expensive loop to run on chain.

57:19 And you know, to be honest, if you if you want to get like 500 assets in there, like going back to your question earlier, Brendan, are we going to have like fully diversified like like really diversified like RWA index funds on chain? you're not going to do it in one block on an EVM. You're just not gonna you're not gonna do that, you know.

57:39 So, there needs to be more elegant ways of of using these new technologies that are coming along and trying to like very much very much like look at like the solidity like like that core onchain code as the rules, you know, this is just the rules and then all of the really complex stuff is like happening on chain in some sort of a trusted verifiable way.

58:00 So that that's the other the other big thing like it's it's it's really like you know be completely crosschain chain agnostic h push all of the expensive computation out of the you know EVM environment and and decentralize all of the functions so that the protocol is credibly neutral and and people can trust that you know my bot can go down in like an AWS server in like you know Frankfurt or something and it doesn't make any difference.

58:25 Yeah. You know that that's those are the three big forks that we need to pursue. No. Yeah, that's that's a great point. I mean, obviously as as we get even more complex financial products, like good luck pricing like options and like using like a block shores or something like that on chain, like that's just not the best way to do it.

58:43 So yeah, I definitely I I see there could be a a narrative that we take where it's like stuff starts to go more of like a proof direction where everything's just a proof of what the actual state is and then you submit that onchain and then users can, you know, withdraw or deposit based on the the outcome of that proof.

59:02 So yeah, I definitely think and and obviously there's a lot of cool work going on with like on like ZKsync and all this like ZK work that's being done. So, I think especially for some of the more complex protocols and the complex like financial options and stuff like this, that's going to be a big thing to to look into and and continue to build on.

59:25 And obviously, we'll we'll see where that goes. Maybe that ends up getting integrated into into Nashpoint in some way. We'll see. I mean, really, it comes down to what are the use cases and and then that's like the technical side that has to be figured out. but yeah, I think there's there's definitely an opportunity for like proof chains or something like that.

59:44 That seems somewhat enticing. But I guess at this point, what do you think is like the number one thing that's holding back? Like you said, some of those asset managers like Fidelity, BlackRock, what is the number one thing that's that's keeping them out? Is it just time? Is there anything else? Is it is there a technical limitation?

1:00:03 What is it? I think it's three things and they're all they're all improving. at different rates, but so regulations, execution speed, bandwidth, and security, like these are the the three things that are are going to they're the big decisions that teams are going to be the the big questions people are going to making decisions around. so I think optimistically all three are like moving in a pretty good direction, you know, like I I I don't think I need to tell anyone listening to this podcast, you know, how the regulatory environment is is is is shifting and and and that's already like incentivizing behavior.

1:00:46 So that that's really excellent. I think you're seeing a real explosion in in in terms of like what you guys are doing like smart contract security is like smart contracts are not getting hacked in the same way anymore. It's it is all of the the opsec mistakes and and these these kind of problems that are be becoming like really expensive but smart contracts are actually performing quite well and I think people have have you know it has been that you know kind of like Darwinian survival of the pit fittest yeah process where like you know good principles are discovered and adhered to and then all of the different hacks like in order in order for us to discover all of these different like attack vectors, they have to happen to someone, you know, they just

1:01:35 Have to happen to someone and it's it's brutal when you are that person. And and you know, I really admire teams like Euler who like bounce back from this kind of stuff and it's it's incredible. but the the the net impact of it is is is you know well put together teams won't be exploited by that hack again in the future, you know.

1:01:57 So th those two aspects on the blockchain side, sorry, on the the regulatory side, the security side, we're seeing like good progress and then also like the performance side is is is really exciting now at the moment like I think MegaETH is an incredibly exciting project. I Arbitrum have obviously been doing like lightning fast like EVM like you know Ethereum centric operations and executions for for like years.

1:02:25 At this stage, we see the OP stack is getting faster and faster with the what do they call a it's not like mini blocks something something like that flash blocks. They're getting they're getting much much faster. We're obviously seeing all of these like alt EVM just like pure high performance chains that are like pushing pushing this forward.

1:02:45 So there's you know there's a brilliant kind of like game theoretical state around this as well like everyone's incentivized to like really push onchain execution to become as fast as possible as soon as possible and try and win that and the the the the winners the the like I mean like those teams some will succeed some will lose but like for app developers and people like me that are trying to build on top of that it it's It's it's it's we just win, you know, like we win and then the users win.

1:03:20 So I feel very optimistic along those those kind of like three dimensions about like where the space is going and how we're kind of neutralizing some of the the the the disadvantages that would have prevented teams from coming on chain before. if there's other dimensions or there's other aspects of this that I wouldn't have considered then, you know, feel free to to call me out on it.

1:03:45 But yeah, b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b based on those three, I think we're in a pretty good place. No, I think you're exactly right. And I think just like you said, we're coming to a culmination. We're coming to a point where all these things are getting solved at the same time.

1:03:57 I mean, just just earlier this week, actually, we had a we did a podcast with Team Sovereign, and they're basically spinning up L2s for for apps and really anybody who wants to to spin up their own L2. And they have they said their I think it was like their P95 was like 5 milliseconds to confirmation. So I mean and and that's like if you compare it against like sexes that's even better than than sexes which I think are at like 50 milliseconds or something like this.

1:04:28 So, I mean that that's really exciting and I think, you know, they're working in in one really consequential area for blockchain tech and I think, you know, we'll see exactly what it ends up looking like. But I think the the point is is that we're able to solve these problems. And once it gets all solidified and we have this standardized, then I I think things start to get really exciting.

1:04:51 But and then also like you said on the on the smart contract security side it yeah it's all about iteration and you know things are going to happen where you know teams like like Euler you know you figure out like hey there is like if you go through a certain process there's like a 90% chance that you won't get hacked but if you do it this way then there's a 99% chance and if you add on this then it will be 99.99%.

1:05:17 And of course we'll never truly be able to get to 100% certainty because there's, you know, all layers of the stack and of course also there's operational security and all of these things. But we're going to continue to iterate and and we'll we'll take that that feedback that that comes from unfortunately hard to it's a hard feedback loop to have when somebody gets hacked and then you have to learn that way.

1:05:42 So I think a big part of it is trying to figure out how to get those better feedback loops. I think bug bounties are, you know, a huge step forward in that sense. and having a a properly managed bug bounty program to be able to get that feedback loop, know when your systems are off and then be able to correct it without having, you know, the worst case happen.

1:06:02 But yeah, it's just like with everything, it's it's a feedback process and then making iterations and improving on top of that. like I think teams they used to get no audit and then they get one audit and then now teams they get two audits and then even personally what we started to do is is we used to follow like a traditional audit model and then we just said you know this is this is not enough.

1:06:26 This is this is like 95% certainty but we need to get to 99.9. So we basically we started doing two audits in one with like two different teams that are kind of like competing against each other. But yeah, it's all it's all about that that feedback iteration process and I totally agree and I think we're getting there just like you said.

1:06:46 So yeah, really really bull stuff happening on all of those fronts and I really agree with with your diagnosis of of that. But I mean dude, I'm really excited for for what you guys got coming at at Nashpoint. When is the launch sort of I ideally going to happen? I know I don't want to put you on like a date or anything like that, but is there anything that that people should be looking out for?

1:07:08 I So like yeah, very transparently like the the the the tech is ready. We're just trying to have the right kind of go to market strategy. We want to launch with the right products, select the right partnerships. So that's our our focus and our attention right now is is getting all of that figured out. I think I would love to see this thing go live before the 1st of May.

1:07:34 I think I think that that is very very possible. So as long as we can like come to an agreement with you know the right partners relatively quickly and we're adding enough value for them we can shake hands and and pull the trigger. So yeah, hopefully by the 1 of May. That's awesome, man. Soon. I guess on that note, where can we find Nashpoint?

1:07:56 Where should everyone, you know, stay up to date on everything you guys are working on? Yeah, sure. I would say so we have a a Twitter account at Nashpoint. but I think stay let me let me just get get this guy's this guy's Twitter handle. Stay up to date with my co-founder. He's he's really the kind of the voice and the the face of the protocol right now.

1:08:20 So, let me just give you his exact Twitter handle if you don't mind. Excellent. Yeah. And of course, this will be in the description below. So, for folks who want to check out, want to learn more, maybe you want to open up your fund or you want to get access to a fund that's coming from Nashpoint, you can absolutely go and and check out their protocol.

1:08:40 Yeah, absolutely. Please do. Please. And also ping ping us and feel free to like reach out to us in in our telegram chat as well. We've got a telegram group and you'll find that through our Twitter. And then also check out Punia. It's a Pun Punia Vision. And then I'll share the link with the guys as well.

1:08:58 And yeah, just if you if you like what the sound of, what we're doing, you want to try something, you want to share build something with us, you know, we'd love to hear from you. That's excellent, man. Awesome. Well, I mean, first of all, appreciate you hopping on, dude. I think excellent, excellent time and and we learned a lot about what you guys are building at Nashpoint and also just really cool to see through what lens you guys are thinking about the DeFi space and how you think it's going.

1:09:18 I think I totally agree with with your assessment that there's a lot of exciting things coming up on the horizon and I think Nashpoint's solving a pretty big problem to end up bringing a lot of these funds on chain. So, Godspeed with what you guys are working on. We're we're rooting for you. Thank you guys. Awesome to talk to you.

1:09:37 Really appreciate it.